Last fall I wrote a piece about the depressing job prospects for students graduating from aviation trade schools. After a couple of years and a hundred thousand dollars or so, these graduates are heading off to an uncertain career market. I take that back. Right now it is certain, certain to be bad for the foreseeable future. Not that there aren’t jobs available for young people (or not so young people). There are some jobs out there flying commuter airliners, starting in the right seat and working your way up from there.
The remarkable thing about those jobs is that anybody will take them. They pay so poorly, little more than $15,000 a year for many starting first officers, that the only people who can afford to take them are people who have nothing to begin with. These are typically very young people or those so desperate to fly that they’re willing to work for less than survival wages to stay in the air some way. The career move is a huge gamble. Will these jobs, that pay roughly as much as migrant workers make, pay off in better paying positions down the line? Maybe. Maybe not. But when you, or mom and dad, have already sunk a hundred grand or more in a career path, there tends to be some motivation to stick with it.
The root of the problem is with the regional airlines. They’ve figured out a way to game the employment market by offering next to nothing to pilots while still knowing that they’ll not only get applicants, but a glut of applicants. They can pay a pittance for pilots who are willing to do the job with hopes of getting on with a major airline down the road.
I'd be all for letting market forces straigten things out--after all, nobody has to take these jobs--if it weren't for the negative impact on safety of putting in the cockpit of a jet a couple of lightly experienced pilots who live under economic conditions that almost guarantee fatigue and low morale. What will happen? Buffalo will happen. Lexington will happen. Can the commuter airlines, which are desperate and existing on the edge themselves, live with a crash like that every few years?
It sure seems like it, and that cynical attitude is dead wrong and it’s time we did something about it.
I say forget about requiring more hours for commuter pilots, or an ATP, and get down to a genuine economic incentive: a minimum wage for pilots.
Now, I’m against a minimum wage for professionals in principle, but here it’s the only solution that makes sense. We’ve long had federal minimum wages for the most humble of workers. That’s because, when jobs are desirable, employers will pay less than what’s humane. Minimum wage laws are designed to protect the poorest of the poor from their own desperation.
That’s what we need to do for pilots by instituting a minimum annual salary of, say $50,000 a year, maybe a little more. The labor market would change overnight, as a lot of highly experienced, highly qualified pilots who can’t afford to take a job in the cockpit today would raise their hands immediately. Then the commuter airlines would hire them. Despite appearances, they do care about safety, though not quite as much, apparently, as turning a profit. Force their hand by mandating a living wage and they’ll hire the best pilots available. The flying public and the pilots who fly them deserve nothing less.
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Submitted by Hogey74 on February 09, 2010.
I agree. If the last few years have taught us anything its that the market is not always right. Well maybe it is, given that "the market" can't die in a plane crash. Here in Australia the minimum a cadet 1st officer will earn in a dash-8 is around $50k I believe. And the captains are on about $80k I think. Don't all rush down here though - the weather is terrible, the beer's worse and everything is venomous. After arduous and expensive training that's enough to live on down here while not being an enticement without the potential for more down the track - which seems about right. If your market is not doing its job (and ours fails us in plenty of other ways) then intervention would appear to be indicated. But I can just hear the "slippery slope to socialism!" howls of the market-obsessed chuckle-heads that I know you are also beset by.
Submitted by dlindsey on February 11, 2010.
I am a commercial pilot that has a hard time staying current. People do not know how hard and expensive it is for a pilot to stay current. The way I see it is that the FAA needs to change there common carriage law so that a pilot can go out and compete with the airlines. If it wasnt for the common carriage law the aviation business would have a better pay scale without socialism. Flying would be more direct flights and more convenent for passengers. If a pilot could fly for hire without all the common carriage law we would all benefit.
Submitted by mdmorrow on February 11, 2010.
I agree as well. In fact if regional airlines offered a livable wage, I would still be employed by one. Let me start out by giving you a little bit of my background in aviation. I began flying around the time I graduated from high school and earned my private pilot license in 2003 during my freshmen year of college at Texas Tech University in Lubbock, TX. I didn't start flying with the intention of becoming a professional pilot but the more I flew, the more I liked it. After a few months I finally told my dad, who is currently a US Airways Captain, I intended to follow his career path. He warned me of the pitfalls and problems in the industry, but like most young pilots, I didn't heed the warnings and instead followed the path to become a flight instructor. I was fortunate enough to not be a product of a pilot factory. I have some strong opinions about those operations but that's for another conversation. I was able to finish my ratings and subsequently become employed by a great local flight school near my college. I was lucky enough to be able fly and go to college at the same time. Many aspiring pilots aren't able to do that. Also, while in college I was able to become a part-time corporate pilot for two different medical companies in town flying Cessna 310's and a Piper Malibu Mirage. My time spent as a pilot/college student was the most fun I had in aviation and I was also able to have a great time in college. I played intramural sports and was very active in my fraternity. In March of 2007 I was offered a job with one of the most "reputable" regional airlines and was offered a class date to become a first officer on a CRJ-200 regional jet. However, I had to delay my class until May of that same year so that I could graduate with my Bachelor’s degree in Agriculture Economics. When I started class with my new employer I was extremely surprised to learn that I was the youngest yet most experienced pilot in the class. I was barely 23 years old had about 2000 hours total with about 600 of that being multi-engine time, none of which was turbine. I considered this pretty odd that the experience level was this low since we were there to fly jets that held fifty passengers. Since I didn't go to an aviation-specific college, such as Embry-Riddle, I wasn't privy to the rumors about what airline to work for and the flight times of the pilots being hired, etc. The reason I chose this airline, I had other offers, was because of the research I did online. I knew before hand that I wasn’t going to get rich there but they were currently were running about a year long upgrade to captain. It also, at that time, had the strictest requirement on that flight time to be hired which was 1500 hours with 500 of it being multi-engine. I was of course very surprised to arrive at training to learn that some of my classmates had as little as 500 hours. This was made possible with the airline’s agreement with certain pilot factory type schools to allow relaxed hiring requirements for their graduates. Training was provided by Flight Safety International in St. Louis, MO and went as expected. Upon completion of ground school and simulator training I made my way to Houston, TX to begin flying the aircraft under the Continental Express flag. The flying overall was a fun experience but when the economy began to collapse, rumors of furloughs started to spread. Due to my seniority, I wasn’t in danger of being laid off, however my upgrade to captain was now years away instead of months. To the uninitiated, this is the most desirable flight time for a civilian pilot, part 121 turbine pilot-in-command. In order to qualify for an interview with a major airline or one of the cargo companies you need about 1000 hours of turbine PIC minimum. Since my chances at attaining that in a timely manner were shot at my current position I began looking for other employment. I was hired by an oil field supply company in Fort Worth, TX to fly as PIC of a King Air 200. This at first appeared to be a good opportunity since they were supposedly growing and looking to buy a jet soon. They also had their King Air on a part 135 (charter) certificate and promised ample flight time since they were chartering the airplane out when they weren’t using it. This was a fun job at first but this company turned out to have their own problems. They couldn’t afford a King Air and I was laid off from this job after only about 6 months. Since now almost every airline and charter company had laid off or fired their pilots there were no jobs to be had. I sent out 532 resumes to all sorts of operations and I’m not exaggerating, I kept a record of every resume I sent out. Anyway, I wasn’t able to find a job in aviation. The most I ever made at the regional was a rate equivalent to about $28,000 per year which made it one of the highest paid regional jobs. My corporate King Air job paid $40,000 which was still extremely low compared to what some King Air pilots make but never the less it was more than I was making before I took the job. During my entire time in aviation I never made enough money to buy a house or invest towards retirement and I had to have roommates the entire time. Not that it really mattered since I was in my early 20’s and single but still I realized that I would never have a very good home life if I continued to live this way. So just after my 25th birthday, 3000 hours, and an ATP certificate, I decided to leave commercial aviation and change industries. I am extremely fortunate in that my family has built a successful company over the last 50 years which owns multiple funeral homes and cemeteries in North Texas and I was able to join their business. I still enjoy flying my family’s Beech Bonanza and I keep my instructor certificates current but I will never return to the airlines because the compensation today does not even come close to equaling the skill and responsibility necessary to sit in the pilot’s seat of an airliner.
Myron Morrow
Submitted by sitrep on February 11, 2010.
I live in Ithaca, NY where Cornell Professor Alfred Khan, the "Father of Airline Deregulation," came up with this horrible theory. Nice try, perhaps good at the theoretical level, but he was wrong and it did not work. Now we need to get over it and rebuild an industry that's in a "race to the bottom." Without major change we are going to have an unacceptable level of tragedy.
As an integral part of this same industry, flight training is beset with the same devils. The tempting impulse for pilots in training is to get the fast perfunctory training rather than quality experience. (Look at our C0lgan 3407 captain with five failures at the "shake and bake" academies) Throughout this industry we need to get back to basic honesty and integrity and make sure we are doing our job correctly, whether we are an airline pilot or CFI. Paying the professionals more (both CFIs and pilots) is a first step in the right direction (not letting the market sort it out...remember Wall Street?) Rebuilding the industry image will take longer.
Submitted by mwaugh60 on February 11, 2010.
It's not a viable idea, but it's a nice idea. A single seniority list would achieve much the same results, but that's not happening either.
You know a first year FO at Continental mainline makes about $30K? Does that make then an unsafe disaster waiting to happen.
Money isn't the answer - you're just trying to treat a symptom.
If you want safety you have to establish regulations (check) and put in place an organisation that is funded to enforce those regulations (oops, that's the piece we're missing).
Submitted by reiding@comcast.net on February 11, 2010.
Excellent comments and I'm in there with Myron Morrow. Personally I have
22 years of flying experience with a CFI, ATP, more multiengine turbine PIC time anybody would ever want flying night cargo under horrible conditions, and flying for a now bankrupt Commuter Airline on my resume. All companies I have ever flown for are out of business today or have closed their flight departments. I was laid off from my latest King Air 350 flying job with the state of Florida due to the recent budget cuts. I happened to be the last one hired and so the first one out. Not based on job perfomance or flying skills at all but that is a different story.
I'm changing industries as well, bye bye flying. There is really no way for most of us to make a decent living flying airplanes and raise a family at the same time. If there would be a minimum wage for airline pilots thousands of experienced pilots with type ratings and many thousands of hours would come out of the woodwork, apply for airline jobs, and make airline flying safer.
Submitted by Fisherlee on February 11, 2010.
The problem with mandating a minimum wage, and especially in the aviation business, is that the flying public demands low fares. They also demand absolute safety, and low fares and safety are nearly mutually exclusive.
I'm sure you also appreciate low fares, but in order for a living wage for pilots to be established, SOMEBODY'S got to pay that. Also, the regionals are at the mercy of their code-share big brothers, and their finances are reeling, for the most part.
Minimum wages, just as in the politically correct "living wages" being sought by and pushed by politicians, simply drive up the price of everything upstream of that minimum wage earner. I agree that pilots should be making more than $16,000 annually--my gosh, people on welfare bring in more than that--higher wages will absolutely mean higher costs, which can only come from increased fare prices, and that won't sit well with a public steeped in $69 air fares.
Submitted by robert goyer on February 11, 2010.
You make a good point. The major airlines are squeezing the regionals dry. They are the major driver for regionals keeping wages so low, because they've got to compete with other regionals, for getting that code share business. And you're right: people are just going to have to get used to paying more to fly. Robert Goyer
Submitted by mfedoryk on February 11, 2010.
Another angle regarding pay. What about the CFI's that are training these future airline pilots? Don't we/they deserve to make a living wage also? Seems to me that CFI's are getting the even shorter end of the stick . The simple fact of the matter is that the entire industry needs some sort of re-regulation from the bottom up.
Submitted by FlyWBA on February 11, 2010.
This is a story as old as aviation. It's why we have ALPA, such as it is, etc. Unions have been out of fashion for some time, especially since Reagan fired the controllers, but maybe its finally time to re-think the problem. The race to the bottom will never end until someone sets a floor. Maybe now that we've seen the Crash and the beginnings of the Great Recession, are beginning to understand its causes and costly repercussions--and who benefited and why-- we can get past the de-regulatory group-think that has dominated American politics and business for more than 30 years. Read the ads in FLYING--many operators are using "student" pilots who are PAYING to fly right seat in commercial operations in order to "qualify" for paying jobs.
Yes, Matilda, safety is a money problem, always has been. Airlines need to make money, no question about that. But they'll keep screwing their employees (and paying the CEO the BIG bucks) in order to stay "competitive" until someone says "enough." Unfortunately, its not just the airlines' with this problem. Just read the paper or look down the street at the empty houses. Will your kids have a better life to look forward to?
Submitted by remymax on February 11, 2010.
I too spent many years and thousands of dollars to become a CFI. After graduating flight school I worked as an instructor at the local flight school. One thing that always bothered me was the owner of the school would remind me how lucky I was to be working there and show me a stack of resumes of instructors willing to instruct for free. I spent ten years there. I built single time and paid for most of my multi. When I logged aprox 1200 hours and 200 multi I sent out my resumes. When I realized I would not take the pay cut I gave up flying and went to a trade school to become an HVAC tech. I work in a field that I like and that pays five times the starting regional pay.
I believe it's supply and demand. There are plenty of low time pilots willing to work for next to nothing to build time. The flight schools know this and the regionals know this. I don't know what the answer is. I would never encourage someone to embark on a career as a professional pilot.
Submitted by skymachines on February 11, 2010.
I agree, but $50K seems a little strong. Maybe $35K would be more acceptable. And, yes, fares would have to go up. Safety costs money. I would probably be flying now for a regional if I could have afforded it when I was looking for a place to use my ATP back in the 1990's.
The major airlines are not blameless here. They have spun off routes to the regionals to take advantage of their lower labor costs. And the major's pilots unions tend to ignore their regional partners' pilots, when what they should have done is offer each regional pilot a seniority number at the major. As well as mentoring programs.
Submitted by hercules on February 11, 2010.
Every time the government gets involved in business, it is damaged. A minimum wage for "connector" pilots will only mean less "connector" companies and fewer jobs for pilots where they can learn to fly like professionals and accumulate the time needed to move on to the majors. Notice that the major carriers are paying their flight crews less these days. Flight crew is a major expense for an airline, not matter what size.
Talk to a Southwest flight crew member or a West Jet flight crew member and see what life is like without a union. All West Jet flight crew members are doing very well. The last time I checked (quarter after 9/11) they got more in quarterly bonus than in salary for the same quarter. They own their own company and take care of it and their customers. They almost drove union and government owned Air Canada into the ground before Air Canada woke up and smelled the coffee.
If you invested your money in an airline, would you want the government to set the salaries for your entry employees? How many would you hire each year? When would the "well meaning" government take additional action? You ensure yourself a so called "living wage" by using your talents to the best of your ability. By taking advantage of the free education you get (K-12). By working hard enough to get a scholarship to a college or university. By preparing yourself to compete, because the world is competitive. Do you expect the government to give you a job? Go be a pilot in China. You get to be a "pilot" by government appointment. Of course you can't fly until you pass your check rides, but you are still a "pilot." 20 years ago, all Chinese pilots were captains. Fortunately, even the government realized that there were left seat captains and right seat captains and some jump seat captains.
Aviation has cycles of opportunity. And the cycles don't always work for everyone who wants to be a captain for the majors and earn "big bucks."
Best of luck to all who aspire to be pilots. It is a great thrill and an even greater responsibility.
Submitted by c2turbo965 on February 11, 2010.
What goes around will come around.. Hardwork will always pay off, just do the right thing, be patient and the opportunities will eventually come when the airlines must revert back to paying the proper wages like the old days.
Submitted by wilburville on February 11, 2010.
Regrettably low pay for beginning pilots and CFI's has been around as long as I can remember. Decades. Been there done that. I had no responsibilities, virtually lived out of my car, lost an impatient girlfriend, and watched others, just like some here, give it up. Frank Lorenzo would hold up his wallet and say, "People vote with their wallets and pocketbooks". We want everything cheap. Well, I have always said to youngsters wanting to fly planes, "You have to have a passion for it. Live it, breath it, sleep it. Put blinders of denial on because all kinds of distractions will dissuade you from continuing: low pay, insecurity, loss of medical, they might sell the plane, bad weather flying, all the fearful things that could happen". If I had listened to all the naysayers I wouldn't be here typing this. I did use the GI Bill to finish off some ratings, CFI and II but had a commercial as a 19 year old paid for by delivering newspapers and eventually owned an Aeronca Champ to build time towards that commercial. This is the kind of dedication I suggest. Leads to appreciation of what the business is about AND offers seasoning which I fear the pilot factories simply cannot offer. I stuck it out and when the situation was ripe: experience, hours, seasoning, willing to relocate, it all fell into place. Corporate, commuter flying "Bandits" for $15000 a year but a big international carrier rang me up. Retired as a wide-body Captain who lived far beyond his expectations. And I read FLYING magazine and believe it shaped me as well. Hang in there.
Submitted by brubey on February 12, 2010.
The way it was.
The way it was went something like this. A young man, or more seldom, a young woman, suffered some sort of hiccup deep in their brain that made them decide to become a pilot. For those who had only suffered a mild such hiccup, the urge usually was countered by the cost, inconvenience of finding an airport, airplane and someone to do the teaching. After all, it wasn’t like walking through the front door of an Arthur Murray Studio to learn how to dance.
For those whose hiccup was far more serious these obstacles were there to be overcome. Sometimes this was accomplished by a large application of money, sometimes by sheer determination and persistence, and for the very most fortunate, both.
The new candidate for airmanship located a flying field, an aircraft and an instructor and set off to realize a dream. What followed was always an exercise in patience and understanding, for both the student and the instructor.
A good instructor then did what good instructors do now, they determined the students level of knowledge and understanding of the task at hand, and applied knowledge and skills along the way to impart all of his own skills and abilities to the student.
Most students were expected to solo after 8 hours of dual instruction. What followed then was for the student to fly with the instructor for one out of every three hours spent aloft. In the interim, the student would practice his stalls, steep turns, S-Turns across a road, climbs, glides, take-offs and landings. After about twenty or twenty-five hours he would be accompanied by his instructor for a dual cross-country flight. Having demonstrated his skills and abilities to navigate and find his way home, he would be signed off to fly cross-country trips solo.
Further “time-building” would commence to meet the minimum 40-hour figure that was the minimum for a Private License in those days. Time was acquired either doing longer cross-country flights or in the local area practicing maneuvers. It all culminated in the Private Pilot Oral Examination and Flight Test, usually administered by an FAA Inspector.
Now then, assuming that our newly minted Private Pilot is planning a career in aviation, he now discovers that he needs to have 200 hours in his logbook in order to qualify for either a Commercial License or a Flight Instructor Rating to go with it so he can begin to make a living.
How does one accumulate that much flight time, assuming that one’s daddy does not own the bank? Well, one rents airplanes for fun or, one rents airplanes with friends to share expenses to travel to interesting spots, or one flies along with someone else who needs a safety pilot or someone to help out with the navigation and flying on a long trip. Delivering airplanes that are here but need to be there, or there that need to be here was popular too. But in the course of acquiring those extra 160 hours to meet the minimum qualifications, most pilots found themselves alone in command of an aircraft, bound for other places and responsible for all the decisions for the safe completion of the flight. They saw, dealt with and endured weather, winds, temperatures, mountains, canyons, rivers, oceans, bays, heavy loads, light ones, happy passengers and the other kind. They gained experience and they gained it without someone sitting 3 feet or less away to ask for suggestions or encouragement. As they approached the magic 200-hour mark, they would usually enlist the skills of an instructor to teach them the maneuvers required for a Commercial Pilot License.
Many Commercial aspirants combined their Commercial and Flight Instructor Rating check-rides and were then better able to find a job.
Time-building continued. It mattered not whether the experience was accumulated giving flight instruction, flying crass-country, spraying crops or flying pipeline or power line patrol, time was time.
At some point along the way, our fledgling aeronaut would realize that a Multi-Engine Rating and an Instrument Rating were going to be essential to the furtherance of their career and set out to acquire those as well.
Working for a living while pursuing advanced qualifications usually resulted in an pilot reaching their goal of having a Commercial, Multi Instrument with something like 500 total hours, or more. Sometimes, it was a lot more. By the time they had qualified for and earned an Airline Transport Pilot Rating, they had a minimum of 1,500 hours and most had a great deal more than that. They were seasoned aviators who could hold their own in most situations aloft.
These earlier aspiring aeronauts acquired experience. It was good experience, as anyone who has ever had to decide how far to let a student go before taking over, or how to get from here to there in bad weather and sometimes, how to say “No.”
When these folks arrived at their first “big airline job” and sat down in the right seat, or maybe the back seat as a flight engineer, they had a lot more going for them than the 250 hour wonder with all his ratings and no time.
Today’s pilot is trained in a controlled environment that pushes them along and through a set curriculum that gives them everything they need in the minimum amount of time and substitutes a lot of flight simulator time for real experience dealing with Mother Nature. They cannot navigate by looking out the window, only by VOR or GPS. Too many cannot make a decent cross-wind landing. Too many more feel that they chose this career to become systems managers instead of pilots, relying on their ability to herd electrons instead of building skills that allow a man to make an airplane dance and sing with his fingertips and feet. They’ve never heard of Gann or Langwiesche.
There is another area in which serious change needs to take place. That area is the FAR 141 & 142 Schools and in any flight school that has an on-staff examiner.
Students with a need to acquire specific knowledge, such as a type rating, will gravitate to schools that advertise a program that fits the needs of the student. Usually, there is a Guaranty of successful completion of the program and the awarding of a license or rating. This causes the student to feel comfortable in the knowledge that they will pass the course. The school needs to maintain a certain minimum success rate or they will not be able to attract new business. This sets up an immediate and very obvious conflict of interest that needs to be eliminated.
Students should be required to take their flight check and oral exams from an FAA Inspector or, at the very least, from an independent FAA Designee who is not affiliated in any way with the flight school from which the applicant came.
While those check airmen and designated examiners employed by the school are all honorable people who do their best to properly evaluate applicants, there is a possibility of pressure being brought to influence a decision. There is also the possibility that the instructors with a weak applicant will “teach the test” in order to insure a successful outcome.
There is no way that at 250 hour pilot with all the ratings money can buy is qualified to do anything more than fly himself around the country gaining experience.
The very essence of a quality pilot is experience and there is no shortcut to gaining it. You cannot sleep with “Fate Is The Hunter” under your pillow to achieve the goal.
Because gaining experience the “Old Fashioned Way” is both time consuming and expensive, it is foolish as well as unfair to expect young pilots to follow this path for a job with pay that qualifies one for food stamps and welfare. Pilots, even new-hire pilots at their first airline job, need to be paid a living wage and treated as the professionals we expect them to be. And airlines need to concentrate on hiring pilots with genuine, verifiable experience, and if that means that ticket prices must rise, so be it.
Submitted by lnashjr on February 12, 2010.
Why isn't the pilot profession valued more than it is today?
That is really the question at the heart of this matter.
Up until the past five years or so, pilots have had such a long "success" streak (ie., few accidents) that the flying public has been conditioned to take us for granted. This success in our profession is unprecedented! I remember about a two-year period when there was not one fatality in ALL of commercial aviation! WOW !
What has happened since then is a slow increase in accidents and fatalities. This is mostly due to more and more inexperience getting into more and more complex cockpits.
As a middle aged professional pilot that has made a living for his family with an aviation career, I say there needs to be a close look taken at the generation of pilots that had the incredible success rate of the past and try best we can to immolate that success. How that is accomplished is way above my pay grade but if we can “study” methane released from cows . . .
L
Submitted by danfadling on February 12, 2010.
Deregulation did not work, let's be clear. In 1979, before deregulation had done it's full work, I purchased a ticket from Sacramento to Omaha for $300 1979 dollars. That same route today costs $150 with a little internet help, and that's in 2010 dollars! Some would argue that the market has worked, but at what cost? My airline folded after 62 years of business with 1 day's notice, and I found myself on the street with only minimum wage jobs available, despite 14,000 hours of experience. I (along with thousands of others) have lost my retirement, my substinance, my home, etc., for the sole purpose of allowing Americans the right to a cheap ticket and corporate leaders to what they'd hoped would be a fatter bottom line.
Now I live in China, where my experience counts for something, but what does that say about our industry when experienced professions like myself (and there are many of us out here) have to leave the US to make a decent wage?!?!? We tried deregulating electricity in CA and it was a disaster, so we repented and put things back the way they were. Sometimes, market forces just cannot work in required public utilites. Let's face it: there is simply too much at risk in terms of capital expense and safety concerns to leave a necessary utility such as the airline industry in the hands of entrepenuers who think they have the lastest idea to make a buck.
Dan Fadling, Beijing, China
Submitted by Land Pilot on February 13, 2010.
A couple quick points. First, the airlines don't exist to provide pilots with a good living. They exist to move people from point A to point B. Second, I can't count the number of times I have heard a pilot say they would fly for free/food/you fill in the blank. With the regional wages what they are and the fact that there are still a flood of applicants, those pilots are proving that is no lie. As long as airlines can attract candidates at low wages, wages will remain low. Lastly, regional airliners are not exactly falling from the skies. There have been a few high profile accidents but overall the safety record is quite good. Safety can and must always improve, but overall it would appear even the low time pilots are doing a remarkable job.
In the PBS program it is clear that the airline involved in the Buffalo crash had extremely poor management throughout the organization. However, the simulation of the flight, based on the flight data recorder, shows the aircraft at a pitch angle of 20 degrees on the attitude indicator when the stall began. The pilot flying, with the stick shaker and stick pusher activated, pulls back on the yoke and brings the pitch up to 30 degrees. Every pre-solo student knows stall recovery does not entail pulling back on the yoke, and in air transport aircraft there can be no mistaking the approach to a stall. Additionally, that aircraft should not be anywhere near a 20 degree pitch on approach. I don't believe actions of this crew can be explained simply by low experience or low wages.
Submitted by robert goyer on February 14, 2010.
Do I think there was a direct relationship between low wages and the difficult working conditions they necessitate and the crash of Colgan 3407? Yes. That crash doesn't happen with a higher paid crew. Period.
Submitted by omoore on February 15, 2010.
Firstly, I believe wholeheartedly that professional pilots should make a decent wage! But I dont believe it should be mandated. I do understand the frustration level with those who have invested their time money etc. etc in aviation, I am a CMEIL/CFII that flew King Air 200s and CitationJet2s but left the industry for many of the reasons expressed above. Aviation is a tough biz. I tell people that its reminds me most of the entertainment industry. Everyone has lifelong and passionate dreams of making it and wearing the uniform etc. etc., will do anything to make it to that goal; but after they do they realize that (for the vast majority) their quality of life isnt what they thought it would be when they were on the outside of the industry.
[To me] The problem of Colgan isnt one of crew salaries. There are plenty of mainline Continental Airlines pilots who surely commute into KEWR. Mandating a salary of any amount is NOT going to make every pilot move to the metropolitan areas in and around most airline hubs!!!! There are large numbers of current mainline pilots who earn very decent wages that live nowhere near EWR. JFK, LGA, DTW, MSP, CVG, LAX etc etc who commute into position and fly safely.
The issue of Colgan is the crew was fatigued, inexperienced, but most importantly *not properly trained and not proficient*. If that Dash 8 had been operated by an owner/operator who was familiar with all its systems it may have averted disaster just by following SOP. The biggest problem with Colgan is training. Their FAA approved training program should have caught all the crews shortcomings and corrected them (which is what happens at reputable operations) or not allowed the crewmembers to earn their type. It certainly should have NEVER allowed a crewmember to pass checkrides without knowledge of the stall warning/avoidance systems!!!!! This lays completely on Colgan. "Flying Cheap" showed Colgan was in gross negligence, FAA should have caught them.
Its easy for any of us to criticize the crew and harp in on their experience levels and pat ourselves on the back. But being an outstanding pilot isn't achieved by osmosis over the thousands of hours and suddenly obtained at some easily remembered hourly benchmark. How many pilots say to themselves, and each other 'I remember when I hit X hours total time, that's when I really knew how to fly.?" As many of us know, certainly the CFIIs among us, there are some pilots who have 200 hours who are far safer than some with 2000. Arbitrary experience levels (or a higher salary) doesnt guarantee proficiency, what guarantees proficiency is *training to proficiency*. The total time of the crews is fun to armchair quarterback, but if a lowtime pilot had gone through a robust, comprehensive training regime that required them to demonstrate knowledge of the stick shaker/pusher (and thats a very basic requirement!!!!) this may have been avoided. Thats what makes the mainline airlines safe, its not just the total time of the crews, the mainline carriers all have very strong training, LOFT, crew pairing procedures etc etc. I think its fair to say that if you cant operate the stall warning/avoidance systems you wont be getting your type rating and allowed to operate Boeings or Airbuses...
My thoughs are:, more FAA oversight of its own regulations and requirements, more substantial company training to ensure that ALL hired crews (regardless of their experience level) are capable when they get their temporary cert and type and walk out to fly the public (along with LOFT and smart scheduling of crew pairs), a corporate culture of safety that is not lip service, and lastly maybe a company policy/reg that states that crews have to be in position a certain amount of time before their duty day begins which would (in theory) ensure that fatigue would be a non-issue. Now that would be something the airlines should pay for (the hotel room the night before duty begins for commuters!)...
Id LOVE for all crews to get paid a decent wage!!!, but I dont believe that alone will ensure safety. A 10,000 hour captain who left the industry 5 years ago and hasnt flown a kite since is not necessarily (if he came back for the proposed 50K) going to be safer than a 1500 hour kid who has been trained properly, flying continuously and works for a company that encourages, and flies with employees who embrace a culture of safety and professionalism (that is overseen by FAA).
Not meant to offend anyone, just my thoughts...
Fly safe...
Submitted by AirFrank on February 17, 2010.
Do you really believe that one's pay is directly related to one's ability? Do you believe that American Airlines Flight 587 went down because their pilots were not paid enough? I don't believe so. They were paid quite well yet the FO still managed to mismanage the airplane to the point of shearing off the vertical stabilizer. While the Colgon's FO's pay was appalling the PIC was paid a descent wage. And he had enough experience. Stop the witch hunts against regional airlines.
Wouldn't we all love to have the most wonderful jobs in the world with the pay WE think is appropriate.
Submitted by Ed Cook on February 17, 2010.
On pilot wages;
Sadly, as long as we are willing to crawl through 50 yards of broken glass just to smell the tracks of the car that drove the offer away, none of us will make any money! If it's not enough money, don't do it. Do something that pays enough.
On accidents;
Flying is very dangerous, the thing that makes it safe is how we manage the risk. Miss-manage anywhere in the risk chain, especially the flight deck, there will be disaster. This is a very old rule and requires the best of professionalism.
Submitted by Cameron C. on February 17, 2010.
I’m a junior in high school and ever since I can remember I have dreamed about being an airline pilot. To this day I still run out to the porch if there is a jet passing over head. I guess that is a little childish. As I have been reading through all of your comments I have learned a lot. I have read about the hicup that I have in my brain and all of the trials that young pilots face, and believe me I appreciate the advice. But even after reading all of your comments above, my dream and determination remains in tacked. There is nothing else in this world that I would rather do with my life than be a pilot. The whole idea of it is so appealing that it overwhelms any other factor in the career choice. There are many other kids just like me who have the same dream and frankly, I will do what it takes to earn my wings. The dream is so strong that I would gladly fly as an FO in the smallest turbo prop and live with my parents (if they let me) for years, as long as I am part of this amazing field. Does that make me some kind of corporate sucker or whipped little SAP? I don’t think so. This is what I want to do. The way economy is going I think that I will have pretty good shot when I graduate from a certain four year flight school in my state. I do agree with you all about experience and flight time, it does matter. But thanks for the advice, I really do enjoy reading all these, and good luck with all of your flying in the future.
Submitted by transonic76 on March 03, 2010.
Flying is a privilege. Not a right. If somebody doesnt want to pay for their safety and well being then drive to where you need to be. I am a veteran out of the Army who decided to not choose helicopters (which is my Fathers profession and business) and chose airplanes. I fly privately, instruct, and work on aircraft and all of it (unfortunately i knew) is crap. Aviation will always be for the over rich and the lucky that get accepted to fly them or work on their aircraft. Every FBO you visit in any and all of your flying days has a sugar daddy that needs a tax write off. Ive been in this business long enough from Uncles who fly captain for US Airways to lone helicopter pilots flying medivac choppers for nothing, to know that only the owners and CEO's and I quote from an unnamed exec will " ride it hard and put it away broke" mentality have got a strangle hold on the industry. Good luck to all pilots supporting family's', good luck to mechanics trying to do the right thing who sacrifice quantity over quality to pay the bills, and good luck to aviation paying the lowest wage for the best job.
Submitted by GatorRob on April 05, 2010.
I am launching a new idea into getting funding for flight training. I am fronting the idea of 39,000 people donating a dollar to make the flight academy dream reality. If you can participate by forwarding the site, or donating a dollar..please do. I am hanging it out there and asking for help to achieve a dream. http://WWW.fundapilot.com
Submitted by Paul Richfield on September 04, 2010.
Robert, nice thoughts, sorry to be joining this discussion six months late. :-D
A minimum wage is a good idea but along those lines, why not raise the minimum Part 121 pilot experience requirements to 3,000 or even 5,000 hours? This would force an entire generation of pilots to gain real commercial PIC experience--not primary flight instructing--prior to becoming a first officer on an RJ or large turboprop. The 1,500-hour rule now under consideration would not have prevented the Colgan Buffalo crash, but a 3,000-hour rule most likely would have. Yes, there aren't enough Part 135 pilot jobs for all the eager graduates the flight schools churn out each year; that's the idea. Only the truly dedicated will make it through, and professional pilot quality will be virtually assured for decades to come. The pay issue is incidental, and no one should waste a second debating the entitlement felt by "pilot factory" grads with $100K in school loans to pay off. That's their problem. To me, the only thing that counts is experience quantified by the number and quality of hours logged. Multi-time, Actual IFR, turbine time. Hands-on, in the weather. Skinny logbook? Stay home. It's that simple.
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