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Gabriel
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Pilots and Automation: Is there a Problem?
from Gabriel
wrote 1 year 37 weeks ago
DFWCapt,
I am nominally not as qualified to comment as you. Remove a couple of zeros from your TT and that's still more than I have. The most engines installed in an airplane I flew is one, and one with four little pistons. And the most automation that the airplane had was an auto-squelch.
That said, I am more qualified to comment on AF447 than you simply because I have read BEA's third interim report that includes the full CVR transcripts and FDR plots, something that you obviously haven't. You'll find the link at the end of this post, but let me summarize:
1) Due to an unreliable airspeed event, the AP and AT self-disconnected and the flight control law reverted to alternate law.
2) The PF took control of the plane, COMMANDING a pull-up so "intense" that resulted in two brief activations of the stall warning, more than 1.4Gs, more than 10° of ANU attitude, and more than 7000fpm. That, in an airplane that was very heavy and near it's ceiling for the conditions (heavy weight and temp above ISA).
3) Additionally, he did so without adding an inch of thrust, which had been previously reduced a bit from the cruise setting by the autothrottle in response to the pilots' command on the speed setting to slow down from 0.82 M to 0.80M, in preparation for turbulence penetration.
4) Of course, this climb is not sustainable even at low altitude, with less weight, and with TOGA, let alone a heavy plane at 35,000ft and reduced thrust.
5) The steep climb started to smooth down due to, in part, the huge loss of speed and in part due to the pilot application of nose-down stick input. But it was too late. The plane had climbed too much (to 37,500ft) and lost too much speed.
6) It is interesting to note that, during this initial sequence, the pilots had correctly recognized the disconnection of the AP and AT, the unreliable airspeed, and the reversion to alternate law.
7) At this point, the stall warning started again. The pilot responded to that with application TOGA (finally) and... PULLING UP HARD AGAIN!!! The airplane had still enough margin over stall that the nose rose again and the plane reached 380,000ft before starting to descend.
8) The stall warning continued to sound uninterruptedly for almost one full minute, during which the pilot made mostly nose-up stick inputs.
The description above covers more than the first one and a half minute of the event. It is interesting to note that during that time:
1) The speed was unreliable but everything else worked Ok, including three attitude indicators, three altimeters, two vertical speed indicators, and all the engine instruments.
2) By the then current procedures, the pilots were required to respond to the correctly identified UAS event simply with AP/AT/FD off (two of them had already happened by themselves), thrust to CLB and pitch 5° ANU. Of the three things they had to do, they did none. Also, the pilots were required to respond to the stall warning with TOGA and a reduction in pitch. They did the first but not the second (which is the most crucial, since the stall is a matter of AoA, you can recover from a stall with no thrust but you can't recover without reducing the AoA).
3) There was no overspeed warning, true or false.
4) There was no false stall warning and, at least during this first more than one minute and a half, no false stall warning silence. There was, however, nearly one full minute of correct stall warning.
5) The plane was in alternate law which is the same than direct law except for the loss of envelope protection (not a minor issue, I agree, especially since low speed and stall protections are among them): It's a blend between load factor demand and pitch rate demand. Except for said envelope protections, the reaction of the plane to a given stick input is the same regardless of whether they are at low altitude or up high, in normal law or alternate law. The FCCs will take care of applying the needed elevator deflection to get the commanded load factor or pitch rate. And regarding the loss of protections, they knew they wee in alternate law so they knew (or should have known) that the stall protection was lost, that the plane could stall, and that pulling up and keeping pulling up is a damn good way to stall a plane (A330 or J3)
6) Everything the plane did was COMMANDED BY THE PILOTS, not the result of atmospheric disturbances or of the computer responding to spooky data.
So we really know what they did and what they should have done. The only question is why they did what they did instead of what they should have done. And thee is one word for it: Training. Starting from PPL.
Pilots and Automation: Is there a Problem?
from Gabriel
wrote 1 year 37 weeks ago
Robert,
Please clarify your comment of the Colgan accident being a GA-accident type and AF not.
AF was first a partial panel situation.
If I lost my airspeed indicator in my little Tomahawk I would never intentionally respond with a sudden pull up that puts the plane in a highly unsustainable climb. And if I did I would consider it a lousy job on my part.
The procedure called for the following memory items: AP/AT/FD off, pitch 5 deg nose-up, CLB thrust, and once the plane is stabilized like that, consult for fine tuned values for pitch and thrust. Of course that keeping at least just a typical cruise attitude and thrust setting would have also worked. The pilot did nothing of the above.
Then, after more than half a minute of a crazy climb, the stall warning sounded. With that the situation turned in an approach to stall scenario. What does the procedure in place back the called for? Thrust TOGA; pitch reduce as needed to make the stall warning stop. I'd say that's a very GA procedure. What did the pilot did? TOGA and pull up reaching more than 16 degrees!!!
With that the situation turned from approach to stall to full stall recovery. The procedure is still the same: reduce pitch. What did the pilot do? He kept mostly pulling up during almost one full second of uninterrupted stall warning.
If I told you that this accident was about a Cirrus in IMC that lost the IAS and the pilot responded by pulling up and kept pulling up even after the stall warning sounded, that would be a typical GA accident.
Now, I'm not defending Airbus and there are several things that I don't like about the Airbus philosophy: The autopilot doesn't move the controls like in a Boeing, the stall warning stops sounding at indicated speeds below 60kts, in alternate law you remain with a load factor demand / pitch rate demand control law which lacks speed and AoA stability but protection are lost (that could lead to an uncommanded stall, that is without applying any nose-up input, if the pilot lets the speed go down), when the AT gets self-disconnected the thrust gets locked in its last setting regardless of the position of the thrust levers (which, because they are left typically in climb, meas that to set climb thrust you have to get the levers off the climb detent and back there again), the autotrim can revert to manual trim (if a certain AoA is exceeded, something that didn't happen here) leaving the stabilizer in whatever position it is (probably fully nose-up) until the pilot notices the problem and take corrective action, and the list can keep going.
Until the black boxes were found, I thought that some of these features can have played a big role in the accident by puzzling the pilot with the typical "what is it doing now?" question. But not. The plane was doing exactly what the pilot was actively commanding.
And now we have AF II (the sequel). An AF A340 crossing the Atlantic Ocean encountered turbulence and suffered an unreliable speed event at 35000ft. Two years after the original AF 447 and with all the lessons learned (?), the pilots responded by pulling up to 11 deg nose up and 5000fpm, reaching 38000ft and narrowly missing the stall just for 3 kts before actually recovering. Fortunately everyone survived, including the pilots, so now we can ask them what where you doing and thinking.
http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/new-air-france-mishap-revives-crash-debate-paper
Pilots and Automation: Is there a Problem?
from Gabriel
wrote 1 year 36 weeks ago
Robert, thanks for your reply.
I see your point: While they stalled the plane in a very GA way, they could have had things in their heads that a GA pilot would not have had, like "HAL won't let me stall".
Now, they recognized early in the sequence (before the stall warning) that they were in alternate law (it's in the CVR). In alternate law slow speed and stall protections are lost. They also received a clear stall that literally shouted "stall, stall, stall..." uninterruptedly for nearly one minute. The stall warning should never activate in normal law (or any law with stall protection) precisely HAL will never let you reach such a high AoA. That the stall warning did sound meant that the stall protection was lost.
If someone like myself knows this just from reading magazines and web pages, one expects that a crew with thousand of hours in the type in one of the lead airlines in the world would also know it.
So there are two choices, they knew the plane could stall and we are back at the GA accident, or they didn't know it. Any of them are beyond comprehension.
I concede that I don't know what were the pilots' intentions when they applied the control inputs they did or what they were thinking. And we'll probably never know for sure because.
Now that we have this second AF event (link in my previous post), that apparently was almost a copy paste of the Rio-Paris accident (except that they could recover after missing the stall for 3 knots), maybe we can ask these pilots: What were your intentions when you did those crazy control inputs? Didn't you note that the plane was climbing with 11º nose up and 5000fpm? Didn't you know that that is unsustainable and dangerous always, and especially when you are heavy and almost at your ceiling? Why didn't you follow the simple memory items? Or, at the very least, just stabilize the plane at a more or less typical cruise pitch and power? Didn't you learn anything from the AF447 accident in a very similar situation in this very airline? What on Earth were you thinking? That could give us a hint on what went on in AF 447.
Video: Surprisingly Bad Way to Stop Fast
from Gabriel
wrote 1 year 1 week ago
The reason for these long legs probably is to increase the deck angle on the ground and hence the max AoA achievable during take-off roll. These planes, as originally designed and build, have an AoA when running on three points that is below the critical AoA (i.e. the AoA of max lift and start of the stall). Increasing that AoA allows the plane to take off at the minimum speed possible (stall speed), thus allowing slower lift-off speeds and shorter take-off rolls.
Video: Surprisingly Bad Way to Stop Fast
from Gabriel
wrote 1 year 1 week ago
Stephan,
While I agree with your conclusion that braking too hard was the cause of the event, the longs legs (plus large tundra wheels) was certainly a factor, since that puts the braking force much lower-than-normal below the CG, thus making a stronger pitch-down moment with the same braking force. In other words, it takes a harder braking to nose-over a "normal" plane that one modified with extended legs and larger wheels.
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