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Flyinb
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Cessna 172: Still Relevant
from Flyinb
wrote 1 year 21 weeks ago
Gee ....lets see.
A single engine, 4 place, fixed gear, fixed prop, basic, simple low HP "light airplane". One whose basic airframe has been around for over half a century and whose R & D, tooling and most all other initial development costs have been paid for many times over, decades ago (essentially a (very) old airframe with a few tweaks and upgrade to some modern avionics ...which should also cost substantially less that their steam gauge, analog counterparts) ...all this for $300,000+ ?!?!? (oh, but you can get the venerable old "new & improved" Piper Archer for the same price!)
...and we (those of us who been watching "this" happen over these last 20-25 years) wonder why new student start-ups are just about half what they were in the 80's and we're seeing the slow, steady but inevitable death of "General Aviation" in this country?? ...we're killing it!! Turning it into solely a "Rich Man's" sport. ...Very sad indeed.
Cessna 172: Still Relevant
from Flyinb
wrote 1 year 21 weeks ago
I've never commented more than once (rarely ever at all for that matter) on what I read in the media ...certainly not about my own "comments" but in this case a little follow-up on skycop56's input seems necessary. The $32,000 davidvscott paid for his IFR equipped C-172 in 1979 would be the equivalent to about $95,000 in today's dollars.
Now, tack on up to 50% more (an extremely conservative/generous amount) to account for the uncontrolled explosion of all the greed laden "Product Liability" suits many (airplane manufacturers) have had to endure these last few decades (The ONLY thing Cessna, Piper ect. can legitimately claim to have been "victimized" by) ...we should be looking at somewhere around $135 - 140,000 for our present day model.
Sorry to repeat myself, but don't forget, these airframes have remained essentially unchanged and they've looong since realized the return on their original R&D, tooling and misc. costs. But at only $300,000+ ?? ...even considering the overly simplistic math, that's still a pretty hefty (windfall) profit margin in anyone's book! Our unique, beloved vocation and sport is being ...and has long been "gouged" Feel sorry for Cessna?? ...They're (read; executive officers) are doing just fine! Unfortunately, they'll continue to do just fine even after they've run their company into the ground as well.
Most of Europe and all of present day Asia have no such thing as "General Aviation" ...solely because of the prohibitably expensive costs. Their citizens have been com ing here to pursue that dream we all have been taking for granted! Active participation in our wonderful world of" Flight" here in the USA has always been (relatively) on the expensive side, but up until now has remained the best (and only) place on the planet to do so. I'm afraid these greedy times we're a livin' and the exponential rate at which that expense is accelerating, will only serve to hasten the time when those final nails are driven.
Sorry for the rant ...last time on this subject, promise.
Does Flying Cost too Much?
from Flyinb
wrote 28 weeks 6 days ago
Here we go again …more of the same (and tired) ongoing “discussions” within our “Industry” on “what to do?” …about the graveyard spiral General Aviation finds herself in. (the aforementioned "Slump") And again, for whatever reason, the overwhelming impression continues to be that “they” …the “Industry” …our “Associations”, groups, clubs, memberships etc. …the “Feds”, you, me, us …”we” …just don’t seem to get it !
Once again ...Please forgive the following re-cap and redundancy of a couple previous rants, in previous “comment sections” …but I just can’t seem to put this in any other way;
The original purpose …the “concept” of, if you will, for the birth and growth of the experimental aircraft community, for instance, over the last several decades, which later evolved into the “Light Sport” genera and “Industry” of the present, was to allow for the “Average Joe” with a wife and kids to be able to, over a period of about a year or so, build himself a nice, simple (with at least 2 seats as flight is a thing that’s got to be shared!) airplane at a reasonably (read: sane!) monetary expense that would allow said “Joe” and family & friends to both proliferate and enjoy the wonderful world of Flight! But! …let’s take a hard look at what “we” (US General Aviation) have allowed to happen…
Let’s see …the “new & improved” C-172-SP, recently reviewed in Flying magazine: a basic, single engine, 4 place, fixed gear, fixed prop, simple low HP “Light Airplane”. One whose basic airframe has been around for over half a century and whose R & D, tooling and most all other initial development costs have long since been paid for many times over, decades ago (essentially a (very) old airframe design with a few tweaks, and upgraded to some modern avionics (which should also cost substantially less than their steam gauge, analog counterparts) …all this for ONLY $300,000+ ?!?!?
Oh, but you can get the venerable old “new & improved” Piper Archer for about the same price! ...But wait! …you can get a shiny new Cub Crafters Carbon Cub; an even simpler TWO place, basic, fixed gear, fixed prop, low HP “LIGHT SPORT” airplane” with a basic avionics package for the bargain price of just under 200K!!
("is not that flying costs too much but that flying the kind of airplane that they really want to be flying costs too much.") ???
Of course, Cessna has finally (sort of) thrown a bone to the fledgling new “Mom & Pop” Flight School in the form of a 21st. Century “Trainer”; the C-162 Skycatcher! … available for the much more REASONABLE? “base price” (just recently increased!) of 150K! …which means they should be able to afford at least 3 or 4 of em! The C-172 was available, in 1980, IFR equipped, for the low 30′s (aprox. 90K in today’s dollars) In 1979 the C-152 went for just under 20K (55K today).
...As for the all of those available "Kits" out there today ...Realistically, even a modest, two place, fixed gear/prop with a bacic IFR panel (that by reg, one mostly can't actually utilize for it's designed purposes) 140+ kt airplane most often sports (pun intended) a finished price of close to 100K ...many other almost twice that! And don't forget ...ya have to build it yourself!
Now, throw in the over inflated (and ever increasing) costs of hanger, fuel, insurance, maintenance and all those other “miscellaneous” operating expenses and ask yourself; How can even an “Upper” Middle Class, “Above” average Joe afford/justify such a purchase (especially after tacking on all those actual operating expenses) How can such a sums for such airplanes ever be (reasonably) justified?? And we (and APOPA) wonder why new pilot certification is half what it was just two decades ago?? Why (aircraft) rental rates have gotten beyond the reach of most would be Sunday Flyers? What could possibly be causing this decline in our beloved activity?!?
Most of Europe and all of present day Asia have no such thing as “General Aviation” …solely because of the prohibitably expensive costs. Their citizens have been coming here to pursue that dream we’ve all been taking for granted! (but even that may change …read: practically grind to a halt, now that the new draconian EASA Flight Crew licensing regs have kicked in) Active participation in our wonderful world of “Flight” here in the USA has always been (relatively) on the expensive side, and up until now has remained the best (and only) place on the planet to do so. But take another really honest look at the math. Even if we allow for an additional 50% (a very conservative/generous estimate) to account for the uncontrolled explosion of all the greed laden “Product Liability” lawsuits many (airplane manufacturers) have had to endure these last couple of decades (the ONLY thing Cessna, Piper etc. can legitimately claim to have been “victimized” by) …we should, at most, be looking at somewhere around $130 – 140,000 for our present day (fully equipped) C-172. (a SIMPLE, 4 place 120+ kt. airplane) .…hmm.
are we REALLY reaching for ..."wishing" for too much here?!?
In the late 70′s, I struggled to put myself through school (let’s not even get started on the costs of a college degree these days!) and pay for my flight training (mostly through loans) to pursue a dream of being a Professional Pilot. Now 36 years later, after having been fortunate to have flown everything from parachutes to 747′s, this subject has been a particular heartbreak for me, as I seriously doubt I could succeed in that endeavor today …and wonder how any of today’s young folks (of even “above average” means) ever could as well.
I’m afraid these greedy times we’re a livin’ and the EXPONENTIAL rate at which that expense is accelerating, will only serve to hasten the time when the final nails are driven. We’re rapidly destroying “General Aviation” in this country …making it solely a “Rich Mans sport”. “Why” …the rapidly decreasing pilot population? …the rapidly downward spiral of total logged hours? …a Pilot shortage?? …”sluggish sales” factors?? …very, very sad indeed.
Does Flying Cost too Much?
Please ...PLEASE ...Lets get real!
Does Flying Cost too Much?
from Flyinb
wrote 28 weeks 5 days ago
To: "ex_ pat_ in uk"
Thank you Sir
...for even more succinctly articulating my (clumsy) attempts at making a point!
B.M. DeVandry
Light Sport Aircraft: A Segment in Critical Condition
from Flyinb
wrote 19 weeks 6 days ago
Again, here we go …more of the same (and tired) ongoing “discussions” within our “Industry” on “what to do?” …about the graveyard spiral General Aviation finds herself in. And again, for whatever reason, the overwhelming impression continues to be that “they” …the “Industry” …our “Associations”, groups, clubs, memberships etc. …the “Feds”, you, me, us …”we” …just don’t seem to get it !
Once again ...Please forgive the following re-cap and redundancy of a couple previous rants, in this and previous “comment sections” …but I (still) just can’t seem to put this in any other way;
The original purpose ...the “concept” of if you will, for the birth and growth of the Experimental Aircraft community for instance, over the last several decades, which later evolved into the “Light Sport” genera and “Industry” of the present, was to allow for the “Average Joe” with a wife and kids to be able to, over a period of about a year or so, build himself a nice, simple (with at least 2 seats as flight is a thing that’s got to be shared!) airplane at a reasonably (read: sane!) monetary expense that would allow said “Joe” and family & friends to both proliferate (breathe new life into GA) and enjoy the wonderful world of Flight! But! …let’s take a hard look at what “we” (US General Aviation) have allowed to happen…
Let’s see …the “new & improved” C-172-SP, recently reviewed in Flying magazine: a basic, single engine, 4 place, fixed gear, fixed prop, simple low HP “Light Airplane”. One whose basic airframe has been around for over half a century and whose R & D, tooling and most all other initial development costs have long since been paid for many times over, decades ago (essentially a (very) old airframe design with a few tweaks, and upgraded to some modern avionics (which also SHOULD cost substantially less than their steam gauge, analog counterparts) …all this for ONLY $300,000+ ?!?!?
Oh, but you can get the venerable old “new & improved” Piper Archer for about the same price! ...But wait! …you can get the shiny new aforementioned Cub Crafters Carbon Cub; an even simpler TWO place, basic, fixed gear, fixed prop, low HP “LIGHT SPORT” airplane” with a basic avionics package for the bargain price of just under 200K!!
Of course, Cessna has finally (sort of) thrown a bone to the fledgling new “Mom & Pop” Flight School in the form of a 21st. Century “Trainer”; the C-162 Skycatcher! ...available for the much more REASONABLE? “base price” (just recently increased!) of 150K! ...which means they should be able to afford at least 3 or 4 of em! The C-172 was available, in 1980, IFR equipped, for the low 30's (aprox. 90K in today's dollars) In 1979 the C-152 went for just under 20K (55K today).
...As for the all of those available "Kits" out there today ...Realistically, even a modest, two place, fixed gear/prop with a basic IFR panel (that by reg, one mostly can't actually utilize for it's designed purposes) 140+ kt airplane most often sports (pun intended) a finished price of close to 100K ...many other almost twice that! But don't forget ...ya still have to build it yourself!
Now, throw in the over inflated (and ever increasing) costs of hanger, fuel, insurance, maintenance and all those other “miscellaneous” operating expenses and ask yourself; How can even an “Upper” Middle Class, “Above” average Joe afford/justify such a purchase (especially after tacking on all those actual operating expenses) How can such a sums for such airplanes ever be (reasonably) justified?? And we ( and APOPA & EAA ) wonder why new pilot certification is half what it was just two decades ago?? Why (aircraft) rental rates have gotten beyond the reach of most would be Sunday Flyers? What could possibly be causing this decline in our beloved activity?!?
Please forgive me, as I really don't wish to sound sarcastic but it's just mind-boggling to a (simple minded?) guy like myself how casually, and with such cavalier you, and so many other "representatives" of the Aviation Industry quote prices for an average Light Sport (or any other 2-4 place "Light Airplane") ...What a perfectly reasonable price ($150-200K) to pay for a (new) "Light Sport" airplane ...or the $300+K for a "moderately tricked out Cessna 172" ...I mean, what's wrong with that ...isn't that just about right ...why ain't everybody buyin' em?!?
A previous Quote from Mr. Goyer in a previous (related) article; "is not that flying costs too much but that flying the kind of airplane that they really want to be flying costs too much" ???
Most of Europe and all of present day Asia have no such thing as “General Aviation” …solely because of the PROHIBITABLY EXPENSIVE costs. Their citizens have long been coming here to pursue that dream we’ve all taken for granted! (but even that may change …read: practically grind to a halt, now that the new draconian EASA Flight Crew licensing regs have kicked in) Active participation in our wonderful world of “Flight” here in the USA has always been (relatively) on the expensive side, and up until now remained the best (and only) place on the planet to do so.
But take another really honest look at the math. Even if we allowed for an additional 50% (a very conservative/generous estimate) to account for the uncontrolled explosion of all the greed laden “Product Liability” lawsuits many (airplane manufacturers) have had to endure these last couple of decades (the ONLY thing Cessna, Piper etc. can legitimately claim to have been “victimized” by) …we should, at most, be looking at somewhere around $130 – 140,000 for our present day (fully equipped) C-172. (a SIMPLE, 4 place 120+ kt. airplane) AND approximately half that (at best) for an LSA .…hmm.
Are we REALLY reaching for ..."wishing" for too much here?!?
In the late 70's I struggled to put myself through school (let's not even get started on the costs of a college degree these days!) and pay for my flight training (mostly through loans) to pursue a dream of being a Professional Pilot. Now 37 years later, after having been fortunate to have flown everything from parachutes to 747's, this subject has been a particular heartbreak for me ...as I seriously doubt I could succeed in that endeavor today ...and wonder how any of today's young folks, or even us "older guys" (of even “above average” means) ever could as well.
I’m afraid these greedy times we’re a livin’ and the EXPONENTIAL rate at which that expense is accelerating, will only serve to hasten the time when the final nails are driven. We’re rapidly destroying “General Aviation” in this country …making it solely a “Rich Mans sport”.
“Why” …the rapidly decreasing pilot population? …the rapidly downward spiral of total logged hours? …a Pilot shortage?? …sluggish sales factors?? …very, very sad indeed.
What’s wrong with the LSA picture???
Please ...PLEASE ...Let's ALL get real!
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