Submitted by AUSSIE on October 15, 2001
Can somebody please tell me when and if one of the major manufacturers will produce a new piston twin that will legally carry up to 8 passengers? Surely there would be a massive market. I know all about Cessna 208's and PC12's etc so leave them out please. Any comments or thoughts would be most welcome.
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October 29, 2004
It's been done, though not anymore. These planes are often referred to as "cabin-class" aircraft, because of their airliner-cabin style interiors, usually with an aisle between the seats, near-stand-up headroom, and often other airliner amenities, such as air-conditioning, "air-stair" doors, and those two most precious passenger luxuries: pressurization and a potty.
. To compensate for the limited horsepower of general aviation engines of the 50's and 60's, many of the big twins'engines were "wound up" to higher rpm's to squeeze every last ounce of horsepower out of them (shortening their lifespan), then "geared-down" through a "reduction gearbox" to turn the prop at a normal (and aerodynamically-efficient) speed. Consequently, geared engines are less-efficient -- and more trouble-prone -- than others of the same horsepower.
Piston twins of the past include:
ROCKWELL/GULFSTREAM/AERO COMMANDER:
(nearly all the "twin Commanders" would carry 7 or more)
BEECH (now Raytheon):
- Beech Model 18 "Twin Beech" (with the radial engines and twin tails).
- Beech Twin Bonanza (barely related to the Bonanza, it was a big beast, leading to the Queen Air; First models sat 5 -- 3 abreast on the front seat! Later models carried 6 in aisle seating, with an air-stair door.)
- Beech Queen Air (various models theoretically carrying up to 11), (the pressurized Queen Air 88 was the predecessor to the King Air turboprop, and unpressurized square-window models led to the turboprop 99 Airliner).
CESSNA:
- Cessna 411 (first "cabin-class" Cessna, troubled with geared engines)
- Cessna 401 (411, with smaller, non-geared engines)
- Cessna 402 (401 modified for airline and cargo operations, with more storage spaces, largely in a longer nose, higher payloads)
- Cessna 404 Titan/CaravanII (stretched, strengthened 402, with square windows)
- Cessna 421/Golden Eagle (pressurized 411, later stretched, and strengthened; demanding geared engines, but 7-10 seat piston luxury at its best. Adding PT6A turboprops made it the 425/Corsair/Conquest1.)
- Cessna 414/Chancellor (421, with smaller, non-geared engines; it reportedly has a rather high accident rate, perhaps due to many being owner-flown).
- Cessna T303 Crusader (rare bird, Cessna's last "cabin-class" piston twin, in a much lower-horsepower class, as I recall. Unpressurized, and resembles the Rockwell 700)
PIPER:
- Piper Navajo (very efficient, popular with commuter airlines in the 60's and 70's.)
- Piper Mojave / Navajo P (Pressurized Navajo; led to the Cheyenne turboprop)
- Piper Chieftain / Navajo Chieftain (stretched Navajo, especially popular with commuter airlines in the 60's and 70's -- consequently, many have been worked to death.)
There are some comparatively simple big twins, too, such as:
BRITTEN-NORMAN Islander (slow, short-field, FIXED-gear twin, designed for tourist airlines in the Caribbean)
Also there are the rare and pricey GRUMMAN flying boats:
Goose, Widgeon, Mallard and very costly Albatross.
Don't forget those smaller, cheaper, non-cabin-class twins which (officially, at least) seat 6 (some with pressurization):
Beech Baron 58/58P (STILL in production)
Cessna Skymaster
Cessna 310/320
Cessna 335/340
Piper Aztec
Piper Aerostar
...and a few others.
CAUTION: most have very discomforting accident rates, and are often easily overloaded.
Remember, whatever you "move up" to, bigger is NOT necessarily better. More speed and sophistication requires greater skills, and less ego (or less reckless optimism) for the pilot. These planes are commonly designed with the chief intent of being sold to corporate and commericial operators using highly-trained TWO-man cockpit crews. Most are old and frequently require expensive servicing -- often including major airframe structural modifications, AD's with mind-blowing mandatory costs.
And, as with all airplanes, operating cost goes up radically with size and power. Good luck, and...
Fly wisely.
~RH.
December 30, 2004
Aussie,
It is doubtful that you will ever see such an airplane as you ask for.
As posted earlier, the Cessna 400 series *could* carry up to eight passengers, although not comfortably, nor very far. You can purchase a 414A or 421C for less than half a million dollars, and the newest of those is almost 20 years old.
The price of new Baron, which only can seat 6 people is over a million dollars. The only other piston twins that I am aware of in the U.S. still in production would be the Piper Seminole, a four seat trainer, and the Seneca V, a six passenger aircraft. The Seminole runs about half a million, and the Seneca pushes over three quarters of a million dollars.
With the coming of the Very Light Jets in a price range starting at 1.2 million, it is next to impossible to think that any manufacturer would spend the money necessary to design, build, test and market a new ''large twin'piston powered aircraft. I would suggest, and I may be way off, but I don't think so, that if Cessna were to market an updated 421C today, that it would run in the same price range as a Meridian! No one is going to spend close to two million dollars for a twin engined piston powered airplane, there is no market for it.
The closest you're going to come to this is going to be a King Air C90, and that's going to run you over two million dollars. To fly with eight passengers and achieve a range of a six passenger twin like the Baron or so, you're going to have to move into the King Air 200 range, and that'll boost your cost to well over 3 million dollars.
There is no market for an eight passenger piston twin, so you won't see one.
Gary
January 11, 2005
Gary ~
After scratching my head for a few minutes, I realized I'd been a bit narrow-minded in my previous response to the question of an 8-seat piston twin.
I overlooked various unconventional sources:
1. Aero Commander twins "re-manufactured" into legally-NEW "Renaissance Commanders" by various companies.
These are LEGALLY ZERO-TIME "NEW" AIRPLANES! While that would be a hard concept to sell to me, the fact remains that the FAA says they're new -- and it's hard to top a refreshed Aero Commander twin for going in style -- at a price far below the competing commercial products (such as a new King Air). Insurance and finance companies may (or may not) view these as brand-new aircraft, and treat them accordingly. I've seen pix of some in flight, with slightly-warped/wrinkled skins betraying their actual age, but all AD's (including the costly spar mods) are taken care of, and many new components installed, including zero-time engines, and new gauges and gadgets.
Some of the twin Commanders (basically all the 5xx series, such as 500S, 500U, 520, & 560, 560E, 560F) are only 5-7 seaters, but the "stretched" series, includes both piston-prop (680FL, 680FLP, 685, 720) and turboprop birds (690, 800, 900, 1000, etc.) which will seat 8 or more, with the Aero Commander's marvelous view for passengers -- only possible with a high wing. The Renaissance Commander rejuvenation process commonly includes some "active noise-reduction" gimmickry -- which reportedly provides a radical reduction of the cabin noise levels that plagued original twin Commanders.
Pilots love them, with their superb visibility, good flying manners, solid short-field/rough-field capability, and surprisingly simple systems (from a pilot's perspective) for such a big twin. And there's no denying the "super-pilot" ego-boost that comes from operating a plane like the one that flown by the world's most revered GA pilot, Bob Hoover, who flew his famed airshow routines in a Shrike Commander. However, like most owner-flown medium/large twins, the twin Commanders have a less-than-glorious safety record. It can be all-too-tempting, it seems, to become over-confident in these grand birds (and your own skills), if you've got the bucks to buy one.
Twin Commander Aircraft Corp. specializes in this "Renaissance Commanders" remanufacturing business. Their excellent website (online at http://www.twincommander.com ) is WELL worth a look.
Most aviation trade media carry ads for twin Commanders remanufactured to the "Renaissance Commander" spec., and I've seen prices typically in the $125K-300K range. For half the price of a new Seneca V, you could have a LOT more airplane! Just beware: twin Commanders are EXPENSIVE planes to operate, with poor fuel efficiency, very complex systems (from a maintenance point of view) and the shortages of parts and qualified mechanics common with out-of-production aircraft. Their abnormally tall tails, too (higher than a King Air's) seriously limit hangaring options.
2. Consider a plane intended for COMMERCIAL or BUSH operations.
The stout, almost-STOL, boxy, fixed-gear, Britten-Norman Islander/Trislander family (which ranges from a 10-seat piston twin to a 10-seat turboprop twin. (see http://www.britten-norman.com/home.htm ) Billed as "the best-selling commercial aircraft produced in Western Europe," it's heavily used in remote areas as a popular "bush airliner." The name apparently comes from its initial design for the shuttle-airline industry in the Caribbean islands, particularly the Bahamas.
Britten-Norman also offers a big, 18-seat, piston-prop tri-motor "Trislander" ("the only contemporary 18-seat, piston-engined aircraft available on the market today")!
As for single-engine, big bush birds, there are several, including the various MODERN single-engine bush-beasts intended to supplant deHavilland of Canada's ubiquitous, legendary single-radial bush-beasts (the DHC-2 Beaver and DHC-3 Otter).
These include certain families of aircraft that range from 4-seat piston to 10-seat single-turboprop planes, including the composite AeroComp family (see http://www.aerocompinc.com ) , and the Sherpa kit-beast (Russian-built) family (see http://www.sherpaaircraft.com/oldhome.htm ). (as long as I'm cheating, and mentioning turboprops, there's the Cessna Caravan family, etc. -- and non-bush turboprop singles, like the the Pilatus PC-12).
(And of course there are still various 4-6 seaters such as the eternal Cessna 206, the Maule M-7-235, and homebuilt/kit Murphy Moose, and non-bush singles -- such as the Bonanza 36 and Piper's big singles.)
3. Thanks to "Aussie" for the correction of my stupendous (spelled "S-T-U-P-I-D") oversight of the STILL-IN-PRODUCTION Piper Seneca V -- a very respectable 6-seat hauler -- which I omitted from my list of 6-seat non-cabin-class birds.
4. On the same note, there's also a high-wing 6-seat twin: the Italian-born Partenavia P68 Victor -- a sort of toy Aero Commander, or light-twin Cessna 206, depending on how you look at it. With fixed gear and economical 180-hp twin engines, it's no super-performer or jumbo-hauler, but offers a fairly unique combination of attractive characteristics.
It's sold in the U.S. by VulcanAir (see their website at http://www.vulcanair-usa.com/planes/planes.html )
Fly wisely. Gary ~
After scratching my head for a few minutes, I realized I'd been a bit narrow-minded in my previous response to the question of an 8-seat piston twin.
I overlooked various unconventional sources:
1. Aero Commander twins "re-manufactured" into legally-NEW "Renaissance Commanders" by various companies.
These are LEGALLY ZERO-TIME "NEW" AIRPLANES! While that would be a hard concept to sell to me, the fact remains that the FAA says they're new -- and it's hard to top a refreshed Aero Commander twin for going in style -- at a price far below the competing commercial products (such as a new King Air). Insurance and finance companies may (or may not) view these as brand-new aircraft, and treat them accordingly. I've seen pix of some in flight, with slightly-warped/wrinkled skins betraying their actual age, but all AD's (including the costly spar mods) are taken care of, and many new components installed, including zero-time engines, and new gauges and gadgets.
Some of the twin Commanders (basically all the 5xx series, such as 500S, 500U, 520, & 560, 560E, 560F) are only 5-7 seaters, but the "stretched" series, includes both piston-prop (680FL, 680FLP, 685, 720) and turboprop birds (690, 800, 900, 1000, etc.) which will seat 8 or more, with the Aero Commander's marvelous view for passengers -- only possible with a high wing. The Renaissance Commander rejuvenation process commonly includes some "active noise-reduction" gimmickry -- which reportedly provides a radical reduction of the cabin noise levels that plagued original twin Commanders.
Pilots love them, with their superb visibility, good flying manners, solid short-field/rough-field capability, and surprisingly simple systems (from a pilot's perspective) for such a big twin. And there's no denying the "super-pilot" ego-boost that comes from operating a plane like the one that flown by the world's most revered GA pilot, Bob Hoover, who flew his famed airshow routines in a Shrike Commander. However, like most owner-flown medium/large twins, the twin Commanders have a less-than-glorious safety record. It can be all-too-tempting, it seems, to become over-confident in these grand birds (and your own skills), if you've got the bucks to buy one.
Twin Commander Aircraft Corp. specializes in this "Renaissance Commanders" remanufacturing business. Their excellent website (online at http://www.twincommander.com ) is WELL worth a look.
Most aviation trade media carry ads for twin Commanders remanufactured to the "Renaissance Commander" spec., and I've seen prices typically in the $125K-300K range. For half the price of a new Seneca V, you could have a LOT more airplane! Just beware: twin Commanders are EXPENSIVE planes to operate, with poor fuel efficiency, very complex systems (from a maintenance point of view) and the shortages of parts and qualified mechanics common with out-of-production aircraft. Their abnormally tall tails, too (higher than a King Air's) seriously limit hangaring options.
2. Consider a plane intended for COMMERCIAL or BUSH operations.
The stout, almost-STOL, boxy, fixed-gear, Britten-Norman Islander/Trislander family (which ranges from a 10-seat piston twin to a 10-seat turboprop twin. (see http://www.britten-norman.com/home.htm ) Billed as "the best-selling commercial aircraft produced in Western Europe," it's heavily used in remote areas as a popular "bush airliner." The name apparently comes from its initial design for the shuttle-airline industry in the Caribbean islands, particularly the Bahamas.
Britten-Norman also offers a big, 18-seat, piston-prop tri-motor "Trislander" ("the only contemporary 18-seat, piston-engined aircraft available on the market today")!
As for single-engine, big bush birds, there are several, including the various MODERN single-engine bush-beasts intended to supplant deHavilland of Canada's ubiquitous, legendary single-radial bush-beasts (the DHC-2 Beaver and DHC-3 Otter).
These include certain families of aircraft that range from 4-seat piston to 10-seat single-turboprop planes, including the composite AeroComp family (see http://www.aerocompinc.com ) , and the Sherpa kit-beast (Russian-built) family (see http://www.sherpaaircraft.com/oldhome.htm ). (as long as I'm cheating, and mentioning turboprops, there's the Cessna Caravan family, etc. -- and non-bush turboprop singles, like the the Pilatus PC-12).
(And of course there are still various 4-6 seaters such as the eternal Cessna 206, the Maule M-7-235, and homebuilt/kit Murphy Moose, and non-bush singles -- such as the Bonanza 36 and Piper's big singles.)
3. Thanks to "Aussie" for the correction of my stupendous (spelled "S-T-U-P-I-D") oversight of the STILL-IN-PRODUCTION Piper Seneca V -- a very respectable 6-seat hauler -- which I omitted from my list of 6-seat non-cabin-class birds.
4. On the same note, there's also a high-wing 6-seat twin: the Italian-born Partenavia P68 Victor -- a sort of toy Aero Commander, or light-twin Cessna 206, depending on how you look at it. With fixed gear and economical 180-hp twin engines, it's no super-performer or jumbo-hauler, but offers a fairly unique combination of attractive characteristics.
It's sold in the U.S. by VulcanAir (see their website at http://www.vulcanair-usa.com/planes/planes.html )
Fly wisely.
~ RH
~ RH
January 11, 2005
Another thought:
Insisting on a big piston plane, as "Aussie" implies, isn't necessarily wiser than going turbine.
The growing reliability and efficiency of turboprops, and the increasing availability of "cheap" turboprops (such as the Walter) is greatly threatening the practicality of big piston engines, which haven't been getting much more reliable or efficient over the last few decades -- and which are getting more expensive and scarce.
Further, the availability of CHEAP FUEL and MAINTENANCE RESOURCES (qualified mechanics and shops, and engine parts) is getting much worse for big pistons, and much better for turboprops. In fact, that largely seems to be what's driving the European push for diesel engines in airplanes (including the Theilert diesels powering the super-economical Austrian-built Diamond DA-42 TwinStar light twin).
I'm not sure, but it seems that insurance may be increasing at a faster rate for big pistons than turboprops, too -- which may mirror real engine-failure and accident rates.
One pair of pilots, recently planning a round-the-world flight, determined (to their surprise) that it was CHEAPER to rent a fast, reliable King Air E90 (burning jet fuel) than to fly a piston light/medium twin -- mainly because of the rarity and extremely high cost of avgas (up to $8 a gallon, or more!), and engine-maintenance resources, throughout the rest of the planet.
How long til U.S. aviation succumbs to the inevitable? Probably less time that it will take you to pay off your "new" PISTON-powered, avgas-needy dinosaur!
I love pistons, but I recognize reality.
Fly wisely,
~ RH.
April 28, 2011
C414A fully refurbished with new engines(RAM VII), Garmin panel including AP upgrade, new paint and interior will be in the $750k range. At 210kts and 900nm range this true 6pax twin is a real value. The C421C and the C414A are the top of the food chain in piston twins.
April 28, 2011
Is up to eleven seats too big for you? Tecnam have announced their 2012 model. Twin piston.
http://www.tecnam.com/en-US/notizie/26/42newTecnamaeroplanessoldduringAE...
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