All Comments
Well that's rich...how exactly does a beltway insider represent the "little guy" aviator...?
And what exactly have all his important meetings with his poohbah friends done to do to put airplane ownership within reach of the average aviator again...?...as it was...oh...let's say a couple of decades ago...?
Exactly zero that's what...personal aviation continues its headlong slide into oblivion...and in fact accelerates...Craig Fuller or no...
Now to inject a little logic into this topic...how exactly is Washington DC to blame...or what exactly can it do...to reverse this slide to extinction...?...Nothing...it is not a political matter...it is a matter of the general aviation industry having closed the books on the idea of affordable airplanes for ordinary people...not interested...see ya later...
Right now piston airplanes make up less than TWO PERCENT of the twenty plus billion dollar general aviation industry...which now consists almost fully of multimillion dollar executive aircraft...
So yeah Fuller flying around with his CJ3 fits right in with that trend doesn't he...?...I can see why the little guy flying his 40 year old Cessna...a privilege for which he probably sacrifices more than would be considered rational by non-flying folk...or even his friends and family...might have reason to be peeved...
Frankly if AOPA wants to do something for the little guy then they need to be meeting with industry and lobbying industry to make small airplanes affordable again...that is the real problem...and that is the real solution...
With 20,000 piston airplanes rolling off the line every year...guess what...Washington would pay plenty of attention...without having some AOPA CEO jetting around to "meetings" all the time...
I don't think for a minute anyone at the head of AOPA (or any other org.) could do anything about aircraft prices. These days what sells are plushy interiors, glass, turbo, range, speed, etc. It is enough to see how few 'basic' models Cirrus sells annually.
Count me among those cackling with glee. We went from a CEO who seemed to run things very frugally (as one expects a nonprofit organization SHOULD be run) to one who seemed far more focused on increasing revenue — mostly by tapping its members — than anything else.
Under Fuller's leadership, membership rates went up significantly and several included services became pay-extra, optional add-ons. Members were pelted with ridiculous licensed tie-ins, like a Wine of the Month club. And AOPA became more bloated with mid-six-figure-earning VPs than you can shake a stick at. It felt to me like the organization lost track of its mission and was mostly focused on extracting more money from its members. I became disillusioned enough that at one point I even let my membership lapse, briefly, before thinking better of it and rejoining.
I don't begrudge Fuller's use of the Citation jet to get around, so long as the "getting around" is legitimately for the purpose of serving the organization's members. But I became annoyed to read about all of the pleasure flying, in other aircraft, which Fuller did at AOPA's expense. It must be nice to be able to do that, but I don't particularly think that members should have to pay for it.
I'm just one guy, an AOPA member for the past 15 years or so, but my perception is that the organization is worse off today than it was five years ago under Boyer. In fact, the only improvement I can think of in the past five years is the generally excellent online flight planner, while the list of things that are worse would be pretty lengthy.
I am not sure what the first comment does for us. The reason that piston airplanes are vanishing is a combination of reasons. The cost of AV Gas, Insurance, closing of airports, regulations, airspace issues, TFR's and the amounts of liability insurance that are passed on in the price of the plane. Unless we fix what is wrong in WDCorruption, none of us will be flying unless we all want to build our own planes.
Mr. Goyer,
I could'nt agree more with your article. Speaking for one of the smallest of the little guys, Craig represented inspiration in his thoughtful articles, his conscious of the fact that the little guy needs help in fulfilling his dream to fly, and balancing all of this with his insights into the needs of our brethren flying the corporate gear and heavy metal. One can't do this effectively flying a kite! We were lucky he had the savvy for all the politics of the position. I challenge any and all of the complainers and neigh stayers to get off their complaining pratts and do better.
I felt a personal loss when I heard the news. Thanks Craig - for everything and best of luck in all your new endeavors.
CEOs come and go. Although Fuller, as a Washington insider, has a lot of connections and could lean on those if needed. It could come in handy with our current illustrious leader's agenda and anti-GA rhetoric. The salary is what it is, and it fell well within the norms for CEOs of associations. So what if he used an airplane as a business tool, to increase his availability at various AOPA events, and to help raise money for the the organization. A large portion of those aircraft operating expenses are write offs anyway.
The real problem is from those industries outside of aviation (insurance, legal, oil, IRS, EPA etc.) that continually twist their tourniquet they have wrapped around GA's neck. I am sure Fuller saw the future smoking hole these entities have us headed towards and has wisely decide to bail out. I don't blame him.
In order for us to pull GA out of its lawn dart trajectory, AOPA needs to find a CEO that inspires its members and utilizes transformational leadership to radically change how we produce, certify, and maintain GA aircraft and also how we solicit, train, and maintain our pilot community.
Well, I would expect such an article from Flying Magazine. Flying long ago abandoned any notion of actually representing "the little guy" in aviation, and nothing has changed with the new management. If anything, it's more biased than ever.
As to Craig Fuller's tenure at AOPA, I give him great credit for finally joining forces with EAA to try to provide a more unified front to those attacking general aviation. For that, I have to offer significant kudos.
That said, Mr. Fuller has always seemed totally out of touch with anyone who has less than several mill in the bank. Yes, he flies little airplanes, but......
A WINE CLUB? And, he THOUGHT that was a good idea!! Good grief. That one misstep was enough to clarify just how out of touch this Washington insider really is with MOST aviators in this country.
I know, the wine club gig is a minor deal, but it represents a thought process.
Mr. Goyer, have you attended an AOPA convention before and since Mr. Fuller's tenure at AOPA? The VERY clear message, the instant Mr. Fuller took the reigns: Bring MONEY, lots of it, otherwise you are not welcome. Under previous management, you paid a fee for the full event. Now, you pay the same amount for the event, but if you actually want to attend ANYthing except the seminars, you have to pay again, and again, etc. Otherwise, you're left to entertain yourself, in the most expensive parts of very expensive cities.
As someone else noted, we once had significant services offered as part of our membership, which are now "extra cost". Membership cost has gone up significantly, and value has gone down.
What's not to like about Mr. Fuller's tenure at AOPA?
A guy that is the head of an group that actually promotes general aviation actually flies around in a general aviation airplane?
DAMMIT what was he thinking?
How could he do that?
What is wrong with you people?
How would you suggest he get around? In a Prius?
As for the wine club, I don't care if they sell vaccuum cleaners door to door as long as the profits go to support AOPA's efforts.
What do you care it they promote a wine club or a golf club or a Breitling watch?
Those people pay for ads in the mag!!
You vex me.
I think it is ashamed that Mr. Fuller has had such a short term--prior presidents stayed a lot longer. Overall, I think he did a good job with advocacy.
I was and am not pleased with the commercial turn that AOPA took under his leadership. I had to threaten to quit AOPA if I kept getting junkmail in heart exams, etc. The competition with longstanding AOPA supporters, like Sportys, was also not good.
Earlier comments on appearing frugal are appropriate. AOPA Pilot magazine had several articles that were, as far as I can tell, expensive boondoggles.
Phil Boyer was also criticized for flying the Citation, but I think he justified it well. Note that Boyer bought the Citation, not Fuller.
I do hope that we can find an equally qualified person to lead the organization.
Best,
Vince Massimini
Kentmorr Airpark MD (3W3)
Gkeen said...
"The real problem is from those industries outside of aviation (insurance, legal, oil, IRS, EPA etc.) that continually twist their tourniquet they have wrapped around GA's neck."
WRONG on all counts...first of all GA is doing just fine...never better in fact...that is if...when you say GA...you mean the 98 percent of GA which is executive aircraft...98 percent of the GA industry's annual revenue coming from bizjets and turbine aircraft...according to industry group GAMA...
So business aviation IS General Aviation...I just want to stress that for those who still have the mistaken idea that the acronym GA means little guys flying around in their piston airplanes...sorry...but that is not what GA is anymore...
And the little guy flying around in piston airplanes is all but extinct already...that is why we hear the message all the time that what is good for business aviation is good for the little guy...this has been a mantra here at Flying for quite some time...even as the little guy aviator continues to wither away...while bizav continues to grow and prosper...and lately even the EAA has gotten into promoting this meme...
And as for all those "outside" industries...well...there is a huge right-wing conspiracy to stop ordinary people from flying their own planes I suppose...?
In Reality...all those industries are a factor in every other facet of our lives...one that you did not mention is the financial industry...every product we buy has over 30 percent of its price built in for finance overhead that it took to bring that product to market...on average...in some cases it is much higher...interest charges... brokerage fees...etc...
Yet even with all that financial overhead...a lot of consumer products still deliver more for your inflation adjusted buck than they did 10 or 20 years ago...that is a fact...the car you buy today is better value for the dollar...same with the lawn tractor...the big screen TV...the washing machine...etc...
The only thing that costs five times as much as it did 30 years ago is a new airplane...
Now you can talk all you want about the cost of gas...insurance etc... and those things are a fact of life everywhere...but it is new products that drive an industry...and unfortunately the personal airplane industry is finished because the average price of a new airplane is half a million dollars...which no one can afford...
That is strictly an industry issue...full stop...if the car industry wanted to build an airplane for $50,000 do you think they couldn't...?...sure they could...and they would sell who knows how many thousand at that price...
The aircraft industry looks at things differently...the GA industry makes $20 billion a year in revenue by selling 2,000 executive aircraft at an average price of $10 million each...in order to make $20 billion in sales selling airplanes even at $100,000 apiece...they would have to sell 200,000 small airplanes a year...
That is never going to happen...there simply are not 200,000 people who are interested in buying their own airplane each and every year...or have the $100,000 to do so...
So the numbers are against us...that is the reality...if you do not want to see that...and you want to invent some kind of bogeyman from the "outside" then that is your prerogative...
The aircraft industry sure knows this...and that is why they made the rational choice that it is not worth it...how can it be...?...
Well...so that is the problem...and guess what...?...now at least we know what the problem is and so maybe we can start looking for solutions...but the solution is not to just "root" for business aviation...and bankroll their lobbying fights in rotten DC...
And yes WDCorruption is true...unfortunately it is exactly the kind of lobbying of special interest groups that is the problem...
One such special interest group is business aviation...which is supported by AOPA...Flying mag (since that's where their ad bucks come from) and even EAA...
but let's just clear through the fog folks...business aviation has nothing to do with the family guy who flies his own plane on family "business..."
The real business aviation is going to do just fine...they have $20 billion a year in selling bizjets...they can throw a lot of money around for lobbying and advertising...and they would even like to hit you up for some of your dough too...hey it's all for the cause right...?...we're all in this together right...?...except I don't see anyone doing anything for us...
So yeah...we can continue to cheer and support bizav...as this magazine and Craig Fuller would encourage us to do...and in a generation's time our kids and grandkids will be able to participate in GA by booking a charter seat on a bizjet or turboprop...
Well this is one working Joe little guy pilot who is taking his money and support to other organizations and publications that care about what affects me.
Hopefully someone will create a new group and magazine dedicated to those of us that fly 20+ year old piston singles because all I am hearing is smug remarks and finger pointing from all you rich fellas who think you've got it all figured out.
Enjoy your luxury suite on the Titanic guys...
With the utmost respect Mr. Goyer ...Just what evidence do you have that supports (or refutes?) your statement; (the Headliner no less!) "Vocal Minority" ...Wins?
Surely, as the editor of a publication that reaches so many thousands, you, most of all, understand the "power" of the printed word ...the power of its (intended?) message, whether authentic or perceived, regardless of the actual facts ...or truth?
I'd truly like to believe (I hope) that you're much to Honorable to ever participate is such a disingenuous practice ...deliberately.
But it's your other statement; ..."can get where they’re going quickly, efficiently and ready to do business. That is the entire point of BUSINESS AVIATION" ...that belies your true mind-set and is further evidence that perhaps, you Sir, have forgotten where you came from (though most us who numbered among what was generally perceived to make up the largest segment of "General Aviation" during the 60's, 70's and into the early 90's, were not born into an "Aviation Family" so to speak, with ready access to airplanes and all the wonderful benefits that "GA", of that period had to offer ...no offense )
While it was before my (and I suspect your) time, I've a few vintage copies of your publication when it was referred to as "POPULAR Aviation"
"garnaut"'s post enlightens us all to the REALITY of what has actually happened to General Aviation, much more succinctly and poignantly than I'd ever be capable of.
GA (as we've known her until now) is all but dead in this country (just as it's been in the rest of the world, where it never really existed to begin with) ...having been replaced with "Business Aviation" ...long live the King!
And while I'm not so naive (or young and foolish) or unappreciative to not understand that is was (is?) the engine of capitalism that made "GENERAL" Aviation attainable to most of the masses in the first place, and "Business Aviation" was indeed a (if not "The") very large and essential part of "General Aviation" which fueled that engine ...unfortunately, it has been becoming ( painfully) obvious to me (and I suspect more than just a "vocal minority" of our "community") that AOPA, Flying (magazine) and dare I postulate, EAA, all who've been a welcomed part of my life during my almost 40 year love affair with Aviation, have morphed into what indeed it seems "Corporate America" has equally mutated into ..."Business" entities whose SOLE purpose appears to be the pursuit of profit ...SOLELY for it's own sake, and the unlimited enrichment of its upper echelons.
But I digress...
As a CFII I usually join AOPA yearly...AFTER they send me discounted membership offers...$45 for a glorified magazine subscription? No thanks. And this year? No reduced membership price offers. No what else? I'm not joining. The phone service has declined, the technical aspects of the website are behind the times, the customer service has deceased as well...I think I even detect a hint of superiority in the tone of some of the reps nowadays...something that I never experienced a few years ago.
Glad to see this elitist who has not grown membership levels leaving. I could almost stomach $45 a year for the basic membership if AOPA just made me feel like it's about the pilots and not the staff. Just my impression.
As for Goyer? Grow a pair. Flying too used to be a decent rag but my days of purchasing the subscriptions ended when the contrived Lane Wallace began gracing the pages...PUKE! (not her looks, or even her, just the notion of creating a pilot out of a writer instead of the other way around...seemed...un Flying like). Almost as glad to see the AOPA leader leave as I was to see J Mac go...now if they could just clone ole Bax...
I am in total agreement with builder2b , Flyinb and ChampPilot44. Perhaps we're that vocal minority that your fuming about but we're rightfully upset that we're not represented in GA the way we should be.
Robert Goyer, with all due respect, grew up with ready access to airplanes to climb through ratings. He doesn't know what it's like to scrimp and save for months and eat cheap macaroni for dinner while studying for the checkride. That's not his fault but I'm not sensing that he appreciates his advantages in life. That's the rub we have with all of this.
Those of us who have limited cash to fly are being treated as though we don't matter in aviation, even though we worked just as hard if not harder to be involved in it.
Collectively, in my club alone, there are 40+ pilots who are all very much in this minority. At my airport, I know of many more pilots struggling to stay current. That's probably 100 people right there.
How many others are at every airport? I'll bet it's a lot.
That minority isn't such a minority and our actions speak volumes.
I will never have the opportunity to own a jet but I spend thousands per year in aviation related pursuits. My money is just as good as the business elite.
Craig Fuller and AOPA got a reality check & I'll bet a lot of others will be getting theirs too. Stop this GA class warfare and let's work together, with respect for each other.
Sincerely,
- The vocal not-so-minority.
I recently dropped my membership in AOPA, primarily because I didn't feel I was getting enough value for my money. I only fly single engine piston aircraft and so little to no relationship between what is in my interests and what is in the interests of the corporate jet crowd. AOPA panders to the that crowd and I see no reason for supporting them.
Anyone flying a Citation or Lear can well afford to pay higher taxes and also user fees to support their IFR flights. Obama is right to go after them, as well as the hedge fund managers paying income taxes at the low capital gains rates while the rest of us have to carry the burden they avoid. Craig Fuller was one of "them" - not one of us. And to say that his "high six-figure" compensation was in line with what other lobbyists make is cold comfort. None of them deserve what they are sucking out of our economy while adding little of value.
rbindc,
This is a flying blog, not a pro-Obama blog. Private businesses that decide to pay executives an income, is free to do so in America. Get off Fuller's back. No money paid to Fuller sucked anything out of our economy. And, just because others fly different, sometimes larger, airplanes than you does not make then any less of a caring pilot. I know many corporate jet pilots, and they are as passionate about preserving the right to fly than you or I. And may I add, the majority of corporate jet pilots make much less than the average American blue or white collar worker. They just worked harder and paid more for flying to get where they are. It is definitely the love of flying that motivates these corporate pilots, not the paycheck. Just saying.... get your facts straight.
Excuse me rbinde, Obama has absolutely NO RIGHT to go after anyone's money!! We still live in a constitutional republic not a fascist society. Obama is not a king, and wiflyboy99 is right, this is a flying blog not a pro-Obama blog. Take your pro-Obama, (who wants to demonize GA), elsewhere. You are a moron for believing that junk.
As for Fuller and AOPA, I met the man at an AOPA event in Athens Georgia, and consider him to be a stand up person. I do have a problem being bombarded with emails and phone calls always asking for more money, but I do think they represent all of GA very well, and without AOPA, we would probably be paying user fees for every IFR flight. Keep that in mind next time you go up in your Cessna 172, Cherokee, Bonanza, or Cirrus to fly practice approaches. Look at Europe and other major countries that have user fees. You think single engine GA is on life support here in the U.S., it's dead and gone in other countries unless you are very wealthy. I say keep up the fight AOPA. I will remain loyal member.
burtob79...please keep in mind that this is a discussion forum...
You can't call people here a "moron" any more than you can in real life...
Your opinions would carry more weight too...if you didn't pepper them with ad hominem attacks...play the ball...not the man...
wiflyboy99...
nobody said anything against corporate pilots...so why bring that up...
As someone who worked briefly as a corp0rate pilot I can tell you you have to have a pretty thick skin...a lot of the fat cats you fly around look at you as nothing but a glorified chauffer...as in servant class...
garnaut, point taken. It's troubling that many Americans are buying the garbage that comes from the President of our country, who by the way demonizes an industry that serves him. Too many are buying the class warfare crap.......
flyinb said:
"And while I'm not so naive (or young and foolish) or unappreciative to not understand that is was (is?) the engine of capitalism that made "GENERAL" Aviation attainable to most of the masses in the first place, and "Business Aviation" was indeed a (if not "The") very large and essential part of "General Aviation" which fueled that engine ...unfortunately, it has been becoming ( painfully) obvious to me (and I suspect more than just a "vocal minority" of our "community") that AOPA, Flying (magazine) and dare I postulate, EAA, all who've been a welcomed part of my life during my almost 40 year love affair with Aviation, have morphed into what indeed it seems "Corporate America" has equally mutated into ..."Business" entities whose SOLE purpose appears to be the pursuit of profit ...SOLELY for it's own sake, and the unlimited enrichment of its upper echelons.
"But I digress..."
Actually you are not digressing at all...in fact you hit the nail right on the head...
For those interested in seeing the real numbers just go to the GAMA website and download their 2012 statistical book...inside you will find statistics of aircraft produced...their total value and type...going all the way back to 1978...
Well in 1978 there were over 14,000 piston singles produced and just over 2,600 twins...for a total dollar value of just over $1 billion in 1979 dollars...which is about $3.5 billion in today's dollars...
Total turbine GA aircraft produced were 779 with a total value of $772 million in 1978 dollars...which is about $2.7 billion in today's money...
So the little guy was THE major source of revenue for the GA industry as late as 1978...not the business bigwigs...that says a lot about where we where and where we have come to...of course back then the head of the company made maybe 10 times as much as the Joe on the shop floor...what is it today...?
Let's look at those numbers a little more closely...the average cost of that executive airplane (the turbine variety) was just under $1 million...about 3 million in today's dollars...today the average sticker price is $10 million...
The average cost of a piston plane was $58,000 in 1978 (including twins and all the high end singles) which is about $180,000 in today's money...
If we could separate the twins from the singles we would find the average single price would be closer to $100,000...in today's dollars...
Now what really bears notice is the fact that those 30 some years ago...there were far less than 1,000 big spenders who could spend the equivalent of $3 million in today's money for a bizjet or turboprop...
but there were 17,000 little guys who could afford to buy a piston single or even a twin... over 2,600 twins...
Now let's just ask a very simple question...who has gained and who has lost...?
Well the GA industry has done nicely...it has increased sales from $3 billion a year in today's dollars to over $20 billion...
The big spenders also don't seem to be doing too bad...there are now 2,000 of them buying a new executive airplane every year (almost three times as many)...and paying more than three times as much on average for the airplane...so a nearly tenfold increase in spending power by the big spenders...
Let me just repeat that...A NEARLY TENFOLD INCREASE IN SPENDING POWER...
At the same time piston airplanes...which made up more than 60 percent of GA even as late as 1978...today make up just TWO lousy percent of sales by dollar...
You want to buy a new airplane Joe...?...Can you write a check for $500,000...?
what it all adds up to is that the rich have gotten much richer...while the middle class dream of airplane ownership is toast...
It is not surprising that this magazine which is funded almost entirely by the big spending business aviation...wants to confuse things by lumping us little aviators on life support in with the rest of "GA"...
Please...it is time for some honesty...
You are right about the numbers telling the story - just look at the AOPA membership numbers when the politician replaced a very well respected/frugal with our money president, then look at the numbers today - more than 35,000 less. Why? Because the pol was flitting about the country getting his massive ego stroked, and ignoring the members - the backbone of AOPA. Hope that the Board got the message when they select the new president of AOPA.
Left Coast Pilot
To: " garnaut"
Please forgive this somewhat clumsy, unorthodox attempt at contact. May I quote/ replicate/copy all or part of your reply posts in this forum on another (Aviation) forum whose "representatives" and followers are (unfortunately) in such dire need of a "Reality Check" ?
Appreciate it
flyinb...feel free to use my comments anyway you like...I hope my verbiage does some good...but I'm not holding my breath...
Anyway...it is nice to see someone polite enough to ask...
Aviation got stuck in a time warp that began sometime in the 1930s, saw its heyday during and immediately after WWII and has been in slow decline ever since. No smiling association president is going to restore aviation's glamour.
Although I didn't appreciate AOPA's executive decision to compete with its own advertisers, I've looked around and haven't noticed any other aviation lobby, and don't pretend we don't need one.
Fuller wasn't hired to run a home-town FBO and in the time he worked at AOPA, he kept the country, its lawmakers and committee members aware of the existence of a strong leveraged group that spoke loudly against user fees, AvGas and the value of a good bottle of wine. As a strong, vocal spokesman he earned his salary.
You want mediocrity? There's plenty around and it's cheap.
